Dubai impound ships suspected in cable damage

[Sean Donelan]

Wow, civilian satellite images are getting very sharp

http://www.hindu.com/2008/04/07/stories/2008040759181200.ht

Using satellite images of ship movements in the area, Relianc
Globalcom identified two ships in the area at the time whic
may have damaged the cable

Reliance also confirmed the cable was damaged because of "jerks and force
of the ship.

[Deepak Jain]

There is no reason to assume these are civilian satellites. Any one of a
number of affected or interested countries could have provided the
imagery (or ship information) to Reliance. Its not saying *who* analyzed
the images. ;

Then again, how are ship's captains supposed to know *where* they are
allowed to drop anchor? Is there a "Call before you drop" anchor service
similar to "call before you dig?

Deepa

Sean Donelan wrote
>
>
> Wow, civilian satellite images are getting very sharp
>
> http://www.hindu.com/2008/04/07/stories/2008040759181200.ht
>
> Using satellite images of ship movements in the area, Relianc
> Globalcom identified two ships in the area at the time whic
> may have damaged the cable
>
> Reliance also confirmed the cable was damaged because of "jerks and
> force of the ship.
>
>

[Marshall Eubanks]

On Apr 8, 2008, at 7:57 PM, Deepak Jain wrote


> There is no reason to assume these are civilian satellites. Any one
> of a number of affected or interested countries could have provided
> the imagery (or ship information) to Reliance. Its not saying *who*
> analyzed the images. ;

> Then again, how are ship's captains supposed to know *where* they
> are allowed to drop anchor? Is there a "Call before you drop" anchor
> service similar to "call before you dig?

That's what maritime pilots are for (every commercial harbor has them)
and my understanding is that they are generally require
by law and that there can be criminal penalties for not following
their advice

Regard
Marshal



> Deepa

> Sean Donelan wrote
>> Wow, civilian satellite images are getting very sharp
>> http://www.hindu.com/2008/04/07/stories/2008040759181200.ht
>> Using satellite images of ship movements in the area, Relianc
>> Globalcom identified two ships in the area at the time whic
>> may have damaged the cable
>> Reliance also confirmed the cable was damaged because of "jerks and
>> force of the ship.

[Jeff Shultz]

Deepak Jain wrote
>
> There is no reason to assume these are civilian satellites. Any one of a
> number of affected or interested countries could have provided the
> imagery (or ship information) to Reliance. Its not saying *who* analyzed
> the images. ;
>
> Then again, how are ship's captains supposed to know *where* they are
> allowed to drop anchor? Is there a "Call before you drop" anchor service
> similar to "call before you dig?
>
> Deepa

Anchorages are normally VERY clearly marked on maritime navigation charts

--
Jeff Shult

[Paul Ferguson]

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- -- Deepak Jain <***@ai.net> wrote

>There is no reason to assume these are civilian satellites

I'm glad you said it -- I was just about to utter the same. ;-

- - fer

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-
"Fergie", a.k.a. Paul Ferguso
Engineering Architecture for the Interne
fergdawg(at)netzero.ne
ferg's tech blog: http://fergdawg.blogspot.com

[Robert D. Scott]

If the military can tell a persons sex by shadows in a photo, how tough ca
it be to ID a ship several football fields in length when they are painte
to make them easy to ID.

Robert D. Scott ***@ufl.ed
Senior Network Engineer 352-273-0113 Phon
CNS - Network Services 352-392-2061 CNS Receptionis
University of Florida 352-392-9440 FA
Florida Lambda Rail 352-294-3571 FLR NO
Gainesville, FL 3261

-----Original Message----
From: owner-***@merit.edu [mailto:owner-***@merit.edu] On Behalf Of Pau
Ferguso
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 8:16 P
To: ***@ai.ne
Cc: ***@donelan.com; ***@merit.ed
Subject: Re: Dubai impound ships suspected in cable damag

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----
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- -- Deepak Jain <***@ai.net> wrote

>There is no reason to assume these are civilian satellites

I'm glad you said it -- I was just about to utter the same. ;-

- - fer

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-
"Fergie", a.k.a. Paul Ferguso
Engineering Architecture for the Internet fergdawg(at)netzero.net ferg'
tech blog: http://fergdawg.blogspot.com

[Martin Hannigan]

On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 5:57 PM, Deepak Jain <***@ai.net> wrote

> There is no reason to assume these are civilian satellites. Any one of
> number of affected or interested countries could have provided the imager
> (or ship information) to Reliance. Its not saying *who* analyzed the images
> ;

You can purchase these things from sattelite image services these day
as well as get them from intelligence services


> Then again, how are ship's captains supposed to know *where* they ar
> allowed to drop anchor? Is there a "Call before you drop" anchor servic
> similar to "call before you dig?

The Captain has a responsibility to know where proper anchorages are
That, and they are required to know where oil pipelines, utilities
and other types of cables are run including communications cables
There is a lot of stuff under the water. Cable operators also provid
specific locating data so that Captains do have information availabl
to avoid these issues

If it was the result of the specific ships that they've surveilled
it's likely that they were off anchorage and "slipping" their anchor
The anchor catches the cable and then the cable snaps under it's ow
weight from the pulling

-M

[Patrick Giagnocavo]

Sean Donelan wrote

> Awesome, so could anyone buy a copy of the same images? Which satellit
> do you think happened to be taking images of the area with these ships
> near the time the cables were broken? Which company is selling that set
> of images

Wouldn't it be reasonable that, when the break occurred, they used their
optical time domain reflectometer to compute the approximate location of
the break, and then just called around for whoever had the best images,
or who could quickly task the satellite to get an image

--Patric

[Joel Jaeggli]

Patrick Giagnocavo wrote
>
> Sean Donelan wrote
>
>> Awesome, so could anyone buy a copy of the same images? Which satellit
>> do you think happened to be taking images of the area with these ships
>> near the time the cables were broken? Which company is selling that
>> set of images
>
> Wouldn't it be reasonable that, when the break occurred, they used their
> optical time domain reflectometer to compute the approximate location of
> the break, and then just called around for whoever had the best images,
> or who could quickly task the satellite to get an image

spot can generally deliver an image within 1 day in 60kmx60km blocks
assuming no contention for the slot. 20m resolution is more than
adequate to pick up ships underway at sea. ikonos can deliver 11x11km
swaths

> --Patric
>

[[e-mail]]

[Hank Nussbacher]

At 11:49 PM 08-04-08 -0400, Sean Donelan wrote

>On Tue, 8 Apr 2008, Martin Hannigan wrote
>>You can purchase these things from sattelite image services these day
>>as well as get them from intelligence services

>Awesome, so could anyone buy a copy of the same images? Which satellit
>do you think happened to be taking images of the area with these ships
>near the time the cables were broken? Which company is selling that set
>of images

http://www.eyeofdubai.com/v1/news/newsdetail-19123.ht

-Han

[Joel Jaeggli]

Hank Nussbacher wrote
>
> At 11:49 PM 08-04-08 -0400, Sean Donelan wrote
>
>
>> On Tue, 8 Apr 2008, Martin Hannigan wrote
>>> You can purchase these things from sattelite image services these day
>>> as well as get them from intelligence services
>
>> Awesome, so could anyone buy a copy of the same images? Which satellit
>> do you think happened to be taking images of the area with these ships
>> near the time the cables were broken? Which company is selling that
>> set of images
>
> http://www.eyeofdubai.com/v1/news/newsdetail-19123.ht

Those are geostationary

hybrid in this case implies wide medium and narrow beam applications,
like voice tv and internet..

http://space.skyrocket.de/index_frame.htm?http://www.skyrocket.de/space/doc_sdat/yahsat-1.ht

> -Han
>

[Steven M. Bellovin]

On Tue, 8 Apr 2008 19:31:47 -0400 (EDT
Sean Donelan <***@donelan.com> wrote

>
>
> Wow, civilian satellite images are getting very sharp
>
> http://www.hindu.com/2008/04/07/stories/2008040759181200.ht
>
> Using satellite images of ship movements in the area, Relianc
> Globalcom identified two ships in the area at the time whic
> may have damaged the cable
>
> Reliance also confirmed the cable was damaged because of "jerks an
> force of the ship.
>
Thanks. I wish, though, the article had said *which* cable cuts thos
ships were responsible for -- remember that Egyptian authorities ha
said that their videos showed no ships off Alexandria

There's a bit more a
http://web20.telecomtv.com/pages/?newsid=42942&id=e9381817-0593-417a-8639-c4c53e2a2a10&view=new

--Steve Bellovin, http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~sm

[Gregory Hicks]

> Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 17:10:21 -070
> From: Jeff Shultz <***@wvi.com
>
> Deepak Jain wrote
> >
> > There is no reason to assume these are civilian satellites. Any on
> > of a number of affected or interested countries could have provide
> > the imagery (or ship information) to Reliance. Its not saying *who
> > analyzed the images. ;
> >
> > Then again, how are ship's captains supposed to know *where* the
> > are allowed to drop anchor? Is there a "Call before you drop
> > anchor service similar to "call before you dig?

> Anchorages are normally VERY clearly marked on maritime navigatio
> charts

Speaking as a former "conning officer" (The person giving orders to th
helmsman and engines), anchorage charts (NOT maps, CHARTS) are quit
clearly marked showing things on the bottom of the ocean, where not t
drop anchor, where it is OK to drop anchor, what the hazards are, wher
they are, how accurately the hazard is charted, et al..

In addition, if the anchorage is w/in "coastal waters", usually a pilo
is required for any ship movement. And a pilot is required to kno
EVERYthing about the ocean and environs to safely conn a ship to port

Again, the captain is not required to slavishly follow the pilot'
recommendations, but he'd better have a darn good reason for NO
following them - especially, as in this case, if something untowar
happens

Regards
Gregory Hick

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Gregory Hicks | Principal Systems Enginee
Cadence Design Systems | Direct: 408.576.360
555 River Oaks Pkwy M/S 9B
San Jose, CA 9513

I am perfectly capable of learning from my mistakes. I will surel
learn a great deal today

"A democracy is a sheep and two wolves deciding on what to have fo
lunch. Freedom is a well armed sheep contesting the results of th
decision.

"The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that the
be properly armed." --Alexander Hamilto

[Martin Hannigan]

On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 10:15 PM, Patrick Giagnocavo <***@zill.net> wrote

> Sean Donelan wrote


> > Awesome, so could anyone buy a copy of the same images? Which satellit
> > do you think happened to be taking images of the area with these ship
> near the time the cables were broken? Which company is selling that set o
> images
>

> Wouldn't it be reasonable that, when the break occurred, they used thei
> optical time domain reflectometer to compute the approximate location of th
> break, and then just called around for whoever had the best images, or wh
> could quickly task the satellite to get an image


Cable systems have these capabilities built in. In fact, before th
full break occurred they were highly likely to be receiving event dat
indicating that there were problems occurring based on the movement o
the cable

-M

[Martin Hannigan]

On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 6:14 AM, Steven M. Bellovin <***@cs.columbia.edu> wrote


> On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 22:16:57 -070
> Joel Jaeggli <***@bogus.com> wrote

>
> > Patrick Giagnocavo wrote
> >
> > > Sean Donelan wrote
> >
> > >> Awesome, so could anyone buy a copy of the same images? Whic
> > >> satellite do you think happened to be taking images of the are
> > >> with these ships near the time the cables were broken? Whic
> > >> company is selling that set of images
> >
> > > Wouldn't it be reasonable that, when the break occurred, they use
> > > their optical time domain reflectometer to compute the approximat
> > > location of the break, and then just called around for whoever ha
> > > the best images, or who could quickly task the satellite to get a
> > > image
>
> > spot can generally deliver an image within 1 day in 60kmx60km block
> > assuming no contention for the slot. 20m resolution is more tha
> > adequate to pick up ships underway at sea. ikonos can deliver 11x11k
> > swaths
>
> Right, but those images would be after the fact

> Assume the ship is moving at 10 knots, which is 18.5 km/hr. In 2
> hours, it can go about 450 km. You can't go south from Alexandria b
> ship, except into the Suez canal, but you can go about that far eas
> (eyeballing Google Maps...) before you reach Israel o
> Israeli-controlled waters. A semicircle of that radius has an area o
> about 320,000 km^2. You'd need about 100 images (88 by sheer area, bu
> you won't get an exact match); the pictures alone would cost
> minium of $100K, according t
> http://www.spotimage.fr/automne_modules_files/standard/public/p425_ba582c667a21f3b7d1108ad9773629fdSPOT_Commercial_Price_List_-_Jan_2008_without_EULA.pd
> and quite possibly considerably more. *Plus* there are a lot of ship
> to consider -- that area includes the northern terminus of the Sue
> Canal, and you want good enough evidence to take to a maritime cour
> somewhere

> It might be possible

There are a number of unique characteristics of ships includin
profile and radar fingerprint. I'd like to see the images from th
article that was forwarded to the list

-M

[Martin Hannigan]

On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 9:23 AM, Steven M. Bellovin <***@cs.columbia.edu> wrote
> On Wed, 9 Apr 2008 09:15:03 -060
> "Martin Hannigan" <***@gmail.com> wrote

> > There are a number of unique characteristics of ships includin
> > profile and radar fingerprint. I'd like to see the images from th
> > article that was forwarded to the list
>

> There are lots of ways to identify ships. The question is which wer
> trained on the right area at the right time -- and if the scanning wa
> done somewhat later, how can you tell which ships had been at that spo
> then

> I'm not saying it can't be done; I'm just wondering how

I'm not saying it was done. The image alone is probably out o
context. I'd venture to believe that someone was able to provid
additional evidence to cause the impound of the ships. As you say
it's "possible" that the satellite snapped them as they were draggin
their anchor specifically in the area of the cable, but perhaps the
acquired correlating evidence such as a fingerprint from a friendl
military in the area? Military platforms record radar fingerprints an
compile them in databases after visual identification to use a
'unique identifiers'

My original point was that it's a fairly unimpressive story. I've bee
using satellite to do terrestrial surveys for networks and it's no
incomprehensible that someone could take a longshot and call
company, find out anothers telemetry, call them, and get image
covering a specific time period as you mention. With correlating dat
points, it's a compelling case

-M

[Alexander Harrowell]